As I stated before, I was going to post everything in regards to SOLA and what happened. None of this is going to be taken out of context and will be posted in full pieces with no editing.
This whole issue started with a post on SOLA’s forum about a person being “too uncomfortable” about people’s glamor in a fictional game.
Here is the full original post from the forum:
Coconut Puff – Posted Dec 18, 17 · OP
This bothers me. And I really debated this with myself. I got anxiety from trying to deal with this or even come here to post about this.
Seriously, I don’t like to see males in brief or females in bikini in game or in real life. I have been thinking about how to best to address this with this FC. i don’t like to tell others how they should dress. I had the feelings that my post about the succubus offended people. After all, I was the only one uncomfortable with that level of “liberal progressive fun”. I felt like a party popper. I dreaded this so much that I dreamed that I got kicked out of FC because people thought I was intolerant of people’s “liberal free forward dress style”. I don’t know what’s the Sola code. I wish my discomfort i am feeling would go away. It does not go away so here I am…
Some may wonder how I manage dealing with female bosses with skimpy clothes. I hate those and feel very uncomfortable when I fight them. It was a good thing that I generally play healer so I don’t really have to look at them. I learned to focus on the mechanic, cast bars and party health.
Many thoughts going through my mind… will people get upset at me for posting this? Will people stop playing with me because I am too conservative for their liking?
I am sorry.
This was then followed up by other posts from different people taking ideas out of context and turning it back for their own agenda like:
Eirlys – Posted Dec 19, 17
I think this is worth an open discussion and I think you are a brave lady for bringing it up. These days, if a girl brings up modesty and sexuality, she might be yelled at by men and women alike!
First off, I agree that just like in real life we can’t control how others dress, we cannot demand that others in the general FF community hold the same glamour standards either. BUT, SOLA is a community – a place where everyone agrees to keep the same atmosphere and general standards. It is worth discussing here, I think. Below are my open thoughts.
Scantily clad characters (whether NPC or real player) bother me, too. I have my own rocky history with the wrong kind of exposure before marriage, and I know from many close male friends that it is nearly impossible to get through this culture as a Christian man without being assaulted with over-sexualized images of women. What’s wrong with a sexy woman, you might ask? Nothing, if she’s with her husband. But outside of that context, a “sexy woman” has become an object to be consumed in the eyes of the beholder, instead of a precious person made in the image of God. How are we going to stop sex trafficking, pornography, and male/female/child abuse, if we continue to turn a blind eye to the pressure for (especially) women to cover as little of themselves as possible and to market their outsides more than their insides?
But I’ll move on from my rant. Let’s talk about the SOLA community. The vast majority of people who join SOLA are looking for a “safe” place. Many people talk about problems with aggression, coarse talk, and general relational abuse in their previous free companies. Other members make this their first FC because they already know that they are seeking a “family friendly” environment. You absolutely do not have to be a Christian to be in this community, but SOLA has always made no bones about it: this is community is meant to be led by Christian standards and you must agree to a reasonable code of conduct before joining.
Rather than asking, “What’s wrong with my outfit?”, we should be asking “What’s good about it?” Whatever you think about women and modesty in private, is your outfit affecting others negatively? Is this something a fellow member would be okay with their kid walking by and seeing? Is this something a former sexual abuse victim would feel safe around? What about a married man or woman? Or perhaps a single person who struggles with their singleness?
My practical suggestion:
Modesty is a hard line to define even in the Christian community. I’m not interested in creating a list of digital clothing rules or getting into debates about beauty vs. sexuality. I propose that we just make an unofficial and simple rule: Please don’t walk your character around in their undies.These days what qualifies as a ‘bra’ vs. a tank top or swim top or whatever is all up in the air. And some women are pushing for a more maternal response to the female upper body instead of a sexual one. Let’s not get tangled up in that. But the fact remains for both men and women, that when you see them in their underwear (or bikini bottoms no bigger than underwear), it’s very hard to see them as anywhere but the in bedroom, if you catch my meaning. It really makes me uncomfortable, too. For the love of others in this community, let’s just cover our bottoms! Goodness knows you have so many hundreds of other glamour options in this game.
Can we give up this one tiny ‘freedom’ for the sake of a safe community atmosphere?
Gaius Caelum – Posted Dec 20, 17
First off, please take a moment to consider, no one wants to attack people. No one wants to control other people. There have been expressions of discomfort, and there are concerns about how to address problems appropriately, but two different problems are being conflated and its hurting this conversation.
The first question is, does something need to be done about how SOLA members present their avatars in game? I would say yes.
SOLA in FF14 is fundamentally a limited space. Our goals is to provide a supportive and family friendly FC, and in so doing we explicitly limit our language and behavior. Other people playing the game with us don’t abide by those rules, sometimes even the developers don’t. We still hold ourselves to higher standards regardless.
So one of the issues we need to confront is the presentation of the female body. Several members in this thread have expressed discomfort in the casual objectification inherent in revealing glamors. It’s a true thing, it’s how they feel and the SOLA family has to address it. We owe it to ourselves as a community devoted to the wellbeing and happiness of it’s members.
The question of freedom of expression in our avatar’s presentation is a secondary one. SOLA is not every part of our member’s lives. We don’t control your appearances or your lives outside of the game. We don’t even control everything you do in the game, our members are free to have other friends and activities that don’t abide by SOLA expectations. SOLA’s expectations are among SOLA members, and it’s an important part of our mutually supportive community.
So I feel this needs to be addressed. A separate question is HOW this should be addressed.
Our FF14 SOLA FC isn’t terribly large. Codified rules, punishments, and chains of commands are the domain of large bureaucracies that need them for consistency over a vast number of people with differing opinions. In SOLA, I like to think we know each other and understand our various characters inside and outside the game.
As such I don’t, as of yet, see a need for a hard and fast ban or similar rule. These kinds of issues are ultimately contextual, a question of overarching behavior as opposed to specific events. I hope our members can be appreciative enough of each other’s feelings to address them case by case, and understand that the appearance of our characters can unintentionally bring thoughts of objectification and demeaning views of women.
But only if we can be civil and understanding, and respond to the concerns of our fellow SOLA members. So thank you, Coco, Eirlys, and Mandaryn for being forthright with your feelings. I hope you encourage others to be similarly open, and I hope SOLA will be worthy of your membership.
One of the officers, Daniel, then commented on the subject:
Daniel Lionheart – Posted Dec 20, 17
My point is it’s all point of view not everyone sees one oof it the same. And what if the person feels that the hey are not offensive and kept there gane are we suppose to kick them for that or shame them or shun them doesn’t sound very Christian or family to me. And it my have it my have been taking as a joke but the statment I wrote about lala’s is real and no matter how the dress I don’t find them appropriate never did but I’m not going to make very lala to change to something that’s unreasonable. And before anyone says it’s not them same it is, all follows under appearance we come to sola to game and get away from stress all day for some 7 days a week some one is judgin ot tell us what to do it should be that way here we are all adults here and suppose to be friends. Also let’s be real here look at the games we play in this community Ff14 is tame to the other games here no one objects to the demonology in diablo, the jiggly physics of overwatch. Not to mention all the things in WoW and BDO. Also Gaius some of this was about male characters dressing so it’s not a woman thing only . And also it’s nor as if the people in question are going out there way to flaunt them selves to the members that are uncomfortable they are doing their own thing with their characters all this will do is cause to either not play with person not help members with things, worry about everything they try to put in fear if anyone has a different opinion of their outfit or just plain out just leave FC .and freedom of expression is never second. If they had that mentality back then jesus would never have died for sins remember his disciples and him self did and said things that was consider wrong and not appropriate at the time to their standards. At one point in history and still in some areas it looks wrong for women to wear pants, wear makeup is obscene to some. That’s why I feel leadership should not make any general rules towards this since even among leadership we see and interpret things differently none of us are holier than thou. So like I said before let the people involved work it out talk privately and find common ground and everyone else’s needs to stop stirring the pot to increase division in the community we are all adults God fairing people and at least friends I hope.
Which was then met with these posts:
Gaius Caelum – Posted Dec 20, 17
I’m worried you’re putting two different issues together here Dan.
Absolutely we don’t want to shun or shame people, that’s a given. But we simply can not leave the concerns of our members unacknowledged as well. We want to make sure our members feel comfortable, and thus we have to address this. How developers and players not in SOLA approach this really isn’t relevant, SOLA is a place that’s separate from that.
HOW is an entirely different matter. This is where your worries about rules and being restrictive are valid. I think we’re small enough and close enough to each other where we don’t need rules or strict definitions, because this is a hard concept with lots of edge cases. And perhaps we will need to address other points of discomfort that aren’t as contemporary, and maybe even table the concerns as ones not fitting to our FC culture. But in this matter, here and now, it is an expressed discomfort of several of our members (And once again, we’re not that large!), with support and arguments from the greater Christian family.
Eirlys – Posted Dec 20, 17
Daniel, My concern is that it seems like you are saying that leadership should not take a stance on a concern brought up by members. If that’s true, what is the role of leadership? Like Gaius said, this community is built up around standards and rules that make it different from other communities in FF or video games. If the leadership team doesn’t make an effort to protect and clarify those standards, what are we left with?
As to clarity, I’m not suggesting that anyone be shamed, shunned, or kicked from SOLA. I don’t think Coconut or anyone else has asked for that, either. Really, we’re just asking that fellow members consider others and the family friendly environment when they choose their glamours. I’m sorry if a previous glamour cost a lot of game money or resources (but really, is it that expensive to glamour a bikini?), but we’re weighing in the balances a personal fashion choice that covers a few pixels versus a host of emotional issues that can be triggered in others. All it takes is changing the outfit to make peace! And as a side note, if it’s some summer event and everyone wants to throw the skimpy outfits on, go for it. It’s appropriate to the event. I just don’t feel comfortable around avatars that are permanently changed to something that is intentionally visually shocking, for their everyday gaming. And for my part, it’s the outfit that bothers me; I don’t suddenly ‘judge’ the person and decide to secretly hate them forever because of it. I just want to notice their personality more than I notice their avatar’s nakedness…
Concerning theology, Adam and Eve were naked in the garden before the presence of sin. As soon as sin entered, they saw their nakedness for the first time and were ashamed. Moreover, God himself clothed them. I think it’s safe to assume, then, that in this fallen world, modesty is a good thing and it is from God, not man. Yes, figuring out what that means is largely up to differing cultures, but I thought I was safe in drawing the line at what we usually consider undergarments, since the very nature of the name implies something not meant to be seen. But I’m happy to let other people or the officer team discuss and come to their own conclusions. I’m just asking for a line to be there in the first place.
I’m fine with asking someone to change their outfit personally (though Coconut is right that it does feel uncomfortable to do so), but what if they say “No thanks, I like this gear” ? If someone was heavily cussing in the /fc channel and I asked them to stop, and they said no, wouldn’t the officers take him aside and ask him again on my behalf? Yes, because that is violating the atmosphere of our community, regardless of his personal freedoms. This is why I feel like leadership is good and right to have on concerns of appearance, too. It boils down to the question: do we value individual freedom most, or SOLA community most, when setting our standards?
Ren – Posted Dec 20, 17
First of all I’m thankful for this post. Coconut Puff thank you for being so bold to speak up. The banner at the top of the website says Acceptance and Encouragement and I hope that we can not only accept each others’ differing views on matters like this, but also encourage them to be shared.
Next, I recognize that the officers have been taking an active look at this post and talking about it and I understand the burden that they bear to help decide this issue. As Gaius Caelum said, it’s important that we address this issue and how this issue is to addressed is of equal importance. It is my desire that our Free Company leadership will both welcome all posts on a forum like this and carefully consider each one. One of the core things that has set this Free Company apart is the openness we have and ability to talk with one another.
If I could offer my own voice, I will clearly voice my thought that we should not make any effort to legislate in any way someone’s morality choices in game as a Free Company. Your character, your choices of glamour, and the way you play the game are ultimately yours. On that note, there are a myriad of Free Companies and guilds all over the MMO universe that wear the “social 18+” badge proudly. That comes with inherent assumptions: don’t bring your kids, be comfortable with “adult” humor and language, and finally, what’s on your screen with this guild goes b/c it’s 18+, you signed on for it. In the same vein, as Gaius and others have said, we espouse a “Family Friendly” environment. What that means is in question now, and that is the subject of an inevitable difficult discussion of World Views. I would hope that our Free Company as a whole would stand and proudly wear the “Family Friendly” badge, which targets us to look to the code of conduct and other values that we signed on here.
I think most here are in agreement that we don’t want a “list of rules.” It didn’t work for the Old Testament Isrealites and I’m pretty sure we won’t win with that path either. What I would offer as both a moral and biblical alternative, and one that would help I think provide encouragement to all members of the community, is in line with what Rubie said above in 1 Cor 8-10. However, I want to go to Jesus’ words that we look at today as “the golden rule.” Regardless of your faith practice, I have yet to meet someone that doesn’t want to be treated this way:
[Mat 7:12 ESV] 12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”
We don’t want to legislate morality, so wear your glamors, have your parties, enjoy the raids! Play the game and have fun! That’s what we’re here for! When someone shares a concern, think about what you would want them to do for you if you shared a concern. Since Coco, as well as others, have shared a concern in general, consider how to serve them in their areas of weakness, as you hope they would serve you in your areas of weakness.
Eirlys and I will be in prayer for the officers as they consider this matter. We want a fun place where all the Free Company can enjoy a family friendly environment without people feeling persecuted for their choice of dress, but also a place where those with weaknesses can feel accepted, heard, and listened to. Ultimately, we want a free company where members consider others as higher than themselves. It is to that hope that I pray the officers will look to.
Then our FC leader at the time, Deufont, posted his thoughts on the subject:
Deufont – Posted Dec 20, 17
I want to get my point of view into this discussion so here goes.
I think having any restrictions to how people portray their character in game is a bad idea. I’m not saying we shouldn’t be respectful of others but the very nature of SOLA is “acceptance and encouragement”. Everyone should be allowed to express themselves in the manner they choose.
We are missing another factor in this discussion and it’s the people that are being talked about in this thread. They feel like that they are not being allowed to play the game they want to because of this. And that’s not a good thing.
The fact is, I believe this was brought up earlier, is that the game we are playing has scantily clad characters. It’s reflected in the ESRB rating. (Rated T for teen)
“Content Descriptors: Alcohol Reference, Animated Blood, Language, Suggestive Themes, Violence
Other: Online Interactions Not Rated by the ESRB (Windows PC, PlayStation 3)”The Terms of Service agreement for FFXIV has this as well:
“3.3 Profanity and Offensive Language. You may not use profanity or any language that a reasonable person would find offensive. The Game is for players aged 13 and older. You agree to behave accordingly.”
We should continue to keep the family friendly atmosphere that we have always had in the 3 years I have been a part of SOLA. As put forward by Square Enix’s terms of service and SOLA’s terms of service.
TL;DR: We should all be respectful to each other and imposing glamour restrictions goes against that principle.
Deufont.
And that was met with posts like:
Gaius Caelum – Posted Dec 20, 17
There’s a larger context I feel is not being understood.
I understand not wanting to impose restrictions, and it’s perfectly valid. There are things we shouldn’t restrict, and in other cases I would be against imposing on our members. But I want something to be clearly understood.
These are not my arguments, but I endeavor to listen and appreciate the viewpoints of people who, through accident of birth, have lived greatly different lives than I have. I’m just being a relay for things I haven’t experienced personally.
Objectification is societal. It is an aspect of larger, unspoken assumptions on how women should be, appear, and act. Contextual and subtle distinctions that individually don’t mean much, but taken over a lifetime add up to an overpowering message. In this case, larger society objectifies the female body, placing a woman’s body as a will-less possession or thing to be observed or used for gratification. Some of it is unintentional, some of it is even well-meaning, but its things as seemingly inconsequential as how we dress our in game characters that add to a looming demand for women to look like this, dress like this, and accept being ogled.
I do not think ANYONE in SOLA does this intentionally. Please understand, I do not think you’re sexual predators, or perverts, or monsters. You’re just people, like me and everyone else in the FC. I don’t live your lives, I don’t pay your subscriptions. But it must be understood that members are not speaking out to exert control, or to call out and shame particular members. They just hope SOLA doesn’t have to be a part of a society of objectification. That the value of women lies in more than their bodies. It is, ultimately, a small thing, but that makes it a small change as well, and even a little can be a badly needed show of support.
And that will be my last words on this matter.
Eirlys – Posted Dec 20, 17
Most of the people who have expressed concerns in this thread have expressed their own personal concerns. I don’t think it is helpful, even for the sake of counter-argument, for other people to step in and pretend to know yet other people’s feelings. How do you know what they feel? If they feel condemned or shut down, they should speak up because this is an open and (should be) friendly discussion. Several of us have said several times that this isn’t about condemning or shaming.
On the other hand, several real people have expressed real concerns, and so far the only counter-arguments I’m reading are in defense of unnamed people that might or might not feel offended and might or might not care far more about how they dress their avatar than they care about the hearts and feelings of others in their community.
People choose specific free companies for a reason. Many people have chosen SOLA (past and present) because it purported itself to be a safe and family friendly environment. Yes, even as a shelter from some of the content in the greater sphere of the game. SOLA gives people a chance to enjoy FFXIV without being bombarded by the content that is otherwise acceptable under the rules of this game.
If we aren’t going to hold any standards different from Square Enix’s, we need to stop claiming to be different. Frankly, we need to leave SOLA. Does anyone remember what SOLA stands for? It’s shorthand for five Latin “only”s that set up a framework for the Christian faith: only Scripture (The Bible alone is our authority for defining morality, not Square Enix or personal preference), only faith (in Jesus Christ), only grace (not salvation by works), only Christ, and only for the glory of God. That is what this community is supposed to stand for, even if as a member you are not a Christian. That is what is supposed to define our standards and leadership process.
So when women stand up and say they feel uncomfortable around certain displays of sexuality in this community, and ask if maybe we can not do that anymore, and the male leaders of this free company spend more time defending personal freedom according to varying cultural standards and rules written in the video game contract, instead of taking the time to hear them out and seek to help them, then we’ve already fallen far from what we should be representing.
I was trying to get involved in this discussion to bring about a positive change that everyone can feel peaceful about. I thought, surely everyone will want to work together on this right? The way women are treated in public starts with the way we even view them in private, even on a digital screen. This is serious, but I’ve heard multiple times on this thread that we just need to drop it and get over it. In fact, this thread was even moved (without permission or explanation) out of public discussion until I asked to have it reinstated. So far, leadership here has either been completely silent or aggressive. I am genuinely upset and disappointed. So, you got it, I’m dropping it and I will stop replying for now. I look forward to an official response from the officer team in the near future.
Coconut Puff – Posted Dec 20, 17
I only told an officer through private tell what bothered me in particular because that officer sent me a private tell first to ask me if I was ok. So I thought that officer wanted to know what really bothered me. I did not expect or ask that officer to talk to those individuals. Now I am 100% certain I made a mistake in talking to that officer privately about the specifics and 100% glad that I did not talk to those individuals privately because It would not go well any way. I have avoided talking to people in private about issues that bothered me because I remembered how I had managed to offend people and upset them in the past through private communications. I started this thread because it really really bothers me. But what’s the point of talking to anyone in private now? I sense people who share different views are in defensive mode. I am sorry.
Yes, how a person play, live and glam his/her character is indeed his/her freedom. Be a seductive succubus or a heroic Hulk is one’s choice. No I am not judging anyone by saying seductive succubus or heroic Hulk because that’s what they are created to be and do. How is that “judging” for me to voice my discomfort because I desire to have a supposed family friendly environment? What is “family friendly”. Now a day, seductive, sexual suggestive scenes of movies and TV programs are being aired all day long so it can be rather hard to define. Still even for secular world, they do try to keep what’s too sexy from children programs. For the record, I left a secular FC to join and remain in Sola, a Christian FC for the “family friendly” reason. And please please please…. really? For the norm, majority people do find succubus is way way way sexual than Hulk. Confusing the issues with what’s too sexy with anything including races can cause discomfort depending on how one views it really deflects the real issue and defeats the purpose of having an honest straightforward discussion.
As for the different level of standards, let’s just base on the standard in North America. Like walking around in bikini or swim brief? Is there a reason why people don’t go to US malls in biniki or swim brief? Yes, one choose to do that in a virtual game because it’s a fantasy world that allows one to do whatever he/she cannot do in real life. Still, we do carry our values we based on in real life into this game. What’s too sexy in real life in North America does not suddenly stop being sexy in virtual world. It just become more permissible and more tolerated. One can choose to play solo or choose to be in a community. In a community setting, there needs to be a balance between individualism and community consensus.
I was in a secular external raid team during “coil” time. The off-tank liked to be shirtless and wearing swim brief. I was the only Christian. I was open about my discomfort. He changed more moderate attire to accommodate me during raid. He invited me to his virtual wedding. His wedding invitation asked everyone to wear swimwear. I did go and put on a swimwear for that event and put it away after that. I continued to team with him from time to time until he quit.
Apparently, things got complicated here in Sola.
Ren – Posted Dec 20, 17
Thank you Deufont, Howse Khat, Mandaryn , all officers, for weighing in and sharing your thoughts. And officers as a whole, As I said before, I can’t stress enough how much this is not an easy topic to go over, let alone make a decision on. I am appreciative of everyone’s comments and am glad that we have forum threads like this so we can each take time to compose our thoughts and put them here so that the officers can know the feelings of the Free Company and weigh what is said.
I will note that nothing in the code of conduct says anything about dress or modesty. I will also note that, as I said earlier, I do not want to legislate anyone’s moral choices. As Gaius Caelum so aptly noted above, there is a great undercurrent in our culture that is rising to the top. It’s a moving line of exposure and objectification. My call for the leadership of the Free Company, as well as the High Council of SOLA is to heed: gone are the days when we can not take a stance on this. We have to raise our voice and draw a line. Being a family friendly Free Company is drawing a line. We have to take a stance and draw it somewhere.
I agree with you Deu that “suggestive themes” and other T rated material is content that I signed up to be exposed to when I signed on to FFXIV as a game. It’s pretty much par for the course with SQEX and Eirlys and I both knew that we would need to be careful in this game. This is part of the reason Eirlys and I chose to join this community. We looked up and down to find a community that we felt like would provide a place where it would not be awkward all the time. I live in America and by living in this country and going outside, driving down the road, going to the movies with my wife, or anything else, I am going to be in a world where people are objectified sexually. However, when I go to my firend’s house, I will not stay, and have left houses before, where there was objectifying material or otherwise at that house. That’s my choice and I choose to not set those things before my eyes. I can keep making that choice in this Free Company (and I do with the game often), but what I feel like is happening here is that a concept of serving others is being sacrificed at the altar of personal preference, or autonomy.
Also, since the culture is trending toward this, if not now, with this topic, what will set a community that has a charter, code of conduct, and other written objectives to be family friendly, to draw the line somewhere and say: “we believe this is what family friendly means.” The unique thing about this community is how inviting it is to everyone. It’s in the Code of Conduct! However, on an issue like this, we have to have a clear answer.
I don’t envy the officers here. Likely, some group of people could have their chocobo feathers ruffled here. I hope we don’t make a rule about what pieces of gear you can and can’t wear(or glamour). No one wants to be part of an group with a litany of rules. However, SOLA owes it to the community to think carefully and take a stance on this. My hope is that with positive conversation, lots of counsel, and careful consideration and weighing what is said, there is a win-win here.
Finally, as has been said before, I will say that we are all part of the same community and we should all consider ourselves coming around a proverbial “round table” to discuss this issue. We are not at odds with one another unless we make ourselves so. We should look at this issue as something we all want to solve together for the betterment of the community.
This was a post from another member later about this issue:
Arutha – Posted Dec 21, 17
Greetings All
Most if not all of you know me in way or another….Coco you and I been friends a long time, I understand your intentions of making this thread and have nothing but good thoughts about you, even though what I am about to say is going to disagree a little perhaps with your views. I wanted to make sure you know that, and I am not bothered by your topic being discussed.
I want to say that I do in fact know some of the people being called out in this thread, and I also know exactly what their thoughts are. While I don’t think Coco’s original post in this thread is a problem, I do feel some people’s responses in support of her views come off EXTREMELY judgmental and offensive. I am not one of the people who do the scantily dressed stuff so I have no personal beef here. While Coco I don’t think has judged anyone, some of you going by your posts certainly have, and this is why Christians are disliked/hated by non believers. Anyone who doesn’t agree with certain people’s views here, gets judged. I am not the only one who sees this, I am speaking for those who choose to be silent, because I feel they deserve to be heard, and I am also in alignment of their feelings. I know probably a lot of people in this thread is going to say “I don’t see any judgement here” That is part of the problem, people who believe so similarly and lash out so passionately rarely do see it. I am not saying everyone who supported Coco’s view was judgmental, nor will I call people out specifically, that’s just going to cause more hardship.
This is a suppose to be a family friendly guild-truth. But as has been stated, you are going to see these challenges about how people dress one way or another in this game. Not everyone in SOLA is a Christian, nor was it ever intended to be so as explained to me by the council leaders of both present and past. It was suppose to a place for Christians to come and be themselves, but also be accepting of the views/beliefs of others and show them a loving non-judging environment a place to thrive and maybe someday for them to come to Christ. Don’t see that happening with how this is going. I am a Christian and even I am offended by how judgmental some of these comments are, I would hate for a non-believer to see this thread. They wouldn’t feel welcomed here from what I seen. I am not sure I feel welcome here either.
Deufont, Daniel, I think you have the right idea. People have been hurt by comments in this thread and I am not one of them personally, but I do feel icky reading this thread. It is a high level of intolerance for those who don’t share their views. I don’t mind you all saying you want to restrict how people dress and etc, or want to come up with some solution to Coco’s complaint(say it however you want), I am fine with that. I don’t agree with her point personally but that’s ok. It’s how some of you have presented your views in her support that feel very offensive and with little to no tolerance of others people’s opinions or beliefs. I am very saddened and disappointed in how some people have responded here.
I am posting this cause I feel its important not only the other side be heard, but also that for the sake of SOLA hopefully we can learn from this and find ways to make and support our points without isolating and judging those who disagree. I wish all of you well and wish you a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
We, as the leadership of the Free Company held meetings regards. Below is the audio from that first meeting:
After said meeting, we came to a decision which was outlined in a post by Howse Khat:
Howse Khat – Posted Dec 21, 17
Family and Friends of SOLA,
I am here today on behalf of the FFXIV officer team to give you a few details on an upcoming change that we believe will help improve SOLA and make it a better and safer place for all. However, before telling you about this change, I want to address recent concerns that have surfaced among the community and let you know where the leadership is in regards to that discussion.
1) First understand that the topic of glamours and modesty was talked about for almost two hours in our latest officer meeting. This topic is not something that is simple or easy to handle. We understand that everyone here in SOLA might have strong feelings one way or another. We understand this topic has far reaching and complicated implications with many. We understand and are aware, and we are prayerfully considering the appropriate response.
2) We have begun to take steps as officers to address all of these concerns; no matter what side of the the issue those concerns may lie. This is merely the beginning of what we hope is a positive and uplifting solution for everyone who calls this FC home. Please give us time to digest and come up with solutions than can benefit SOLA as a whole and not just one side or a few people. I promise we hear you and are working on this! But because of the complexity and the emotional nature of this issue, it will take some time to see some results.
With that said, we have decided as a team that all future glamour contests will have an expectation and standard of being family friendly. We trust people to use their discernment in their presentation of themselves, however we will hold the right to withhold submissions if we find them to be not suitable for the wider community.
Additionally, we have decided to implement a new Feedback feature to the website that should be launching very soon. This will allow you to submit your feedback on whatever topic falls on your heart. This will allow for a direct line of communication to leadership, with the ability to keep your feedback anonymous. We hope that by implementing this feature on the website we will encourage communication on all sides in a safe, helpful, and healthy way.
Sincerely yours,
Howse Khat
After that meeting, one of the other officers, Rubie, wanted to talk to me about the said issues. Here is audio from that:
The next part is from my own personal notes on the matter regarding this “Discussion”:
Rubie asked me if I thought she was a “dangerous extremeist”. I re-read the forums and said “based on what you posted on that thread, no you aren’t.” I mentioned that some of the posts by Ren and Eierlys seemed to be a bit extreme on the side of a debate. Then she said that if i thought they were, she was two because they have the same religion. I then had to explain after i realized, that it wasn’t based on religious extremeist, but on and extreme side of a debate. I appologized to her for that misunderstanding.
As per talking with Rubie, there is an underlying issue. There is an issue with her thinking that SOLA IS a Christian community. (seemed like Christian only). She stated that the SOLA charter says we are a Christian Community and not just founded on Christianity and not just Christian Led. She won’t put up with hippocracy. This seems like more of an issue to talk to the High Council about and not just a FC issue. She thinks everyone is against her. I suggested that she personally talk with each of the officers to discuss that issue. Either way, I am going to suggest to the High Council that we should look into reviewing and updating the charter.
I also talked with her about what i was doing to help allievate the whole glamor issue starting with not going around people that have complained about it. If i was required to run something with said player, i would glamor with another summer-y piece. Part of the reason my glamor is important to me is because it reminds me of summer and helps with my depression, especially the seasonal side of things.
Then, the SOLA High Council wanted to hold a meeting because people were going after them about the issue. These people were also telling the high council that I was, “anti-Christian” and “the Devil”. Here is audio of the meeting with the high council:
So in this, the High Council dissolved the FC leadership and put Rubie’s boyfriend in charge of it all. Reminding you that Rubie had an “issue” with the glamor. By “issue” I mean that her friends had an issue with it. With that being done, I left the FC and thought that this would all be behind me at this point.
After a few other things transpired, I ended up handwriting a letter to the High Council about the events:
To the High Council,
Seeing how no time can be made, I’ll hand write my feelings and discuss why I have those said feelings.
Unappreciated
With the constant going over me because it’s “too inconvenient” really irks me. The whole point of policies and procedures is to follow them all the time and not just when we feel like it.
And with the whole FC restructure. No one asked me about who the leader should be. Nope. You just listened to Rubie and her friends. Then put her boyfriend in charge. Conflict of interests? I think so. And the fact that I wasn’t asked to step up was a major kick to the nuts. I have a tone more leadership than what you think. Just because I wasn’t raised as a pure Christian doesn’t mean I can’t lead people.
Bullying and Harassment
With the whole glamour issue thing, I feel that it constitutes as bullying/harassment. First off, what makes a person above being able to judge just because they think that they are pure? Both Vort and I were tied up and burnt at the stake because of this issue. And the High Council did nothing. They just let us burn as others kept fueling the fire. Never in my entire life have I felt this attacked. And I’ve been through some things.It is not my issue if members of the community are not happy with my glamor. First off, it’s a videogame. Fictional. Not real. This is why, to this day, this whole thing blows my mind. FFXIV isn’t a church as well. People have to learn to deal with these issues. The game is rated Teen for a reason. If anyone’s kid watches, it’s on the parent’s shoulders. Not mine, not anyone else’s.
It’s funny how both glamors in question have the character clothed and covering what needs to be covered. So where’s the line? I know I still don’t know. You used this as catalyst for this puritan FC reform, yet don’t define what the rule is. Just because a handful of people aren’t happy doesn’t mean you take as rash of measures as you did.
Ignored
I have also felt that me and my point of view have largely been ignored. I brought up the harassment thing before and it just got brushed off because I didn’t continue to cry about it. None of the High Council asked about it until I put a message in the HC-CO-OO Discord channel. Only at that point I was messaged. And still, we have not talked vocally about this and is why I’m writing this.
Back to the bullying and harassment. I received in game mail from Gaius for his and Rubie’s wedding in game. He made the condescending remark, “Feel free to ask for glamour help.” (See Photo Below)
At this point, my temporary break from the SOLA FC is permanent if this is how it’s chapter leader is going to treat me. And if I don’t get a good explanation or don’t see appropriate actions taken, my break from SOLA will be permanent.
“Acceptance and Encouragement” have not been felt as of late.
Thank You,
Swai’th Belhi
It took them a week or so to get back to me. This seemed to me to be less important than the glamour issue, which they jumped right on and made decisions a lot quicker. This is what they had to say:
Hey Swai,
We’re sorry it has taken so long to reply to your letter. The HC has discussed each of the issues you brought up and would like to explain our reasoning for taking the actions we have. So lets jump right into it.
You seem to think that we’re going over your head as far as policies and procedures go. Being as the HC is at the top of the chain of command it’s not possible to go over anyone’s head. If you are referring to an HC member not being at a few of the FFXIV officer interviews, yes that did occur. However, when I was talking about this in the meeting where we removed all officers I don’t remember asking you to make it a policy. I have asked Kunkali about it and she doesn’t recall me saying it either. My reasoning for making that statement was to ensure that lines of communication between new leadership and HC were kept open so that we could help out and advise where we needed to. Thankfully, Gaius has been very communicative and informative on anything that happens in the FC. If something happens in game or something changes he’s always quick to let us know via Discord.
Regarding the FC restructure, there are many people we didn’t ask who the new leader should be. What we did was listen to the concerns of many people, some a part of leadership, some not. It was not us who chose Gaius but it was him who offered to take the leadership role. So there is no conflict of interest at all and just because they are boyfriend and girlfriend doesn’t mean they can’t work together in the leadership of a guild. The reason you were not asked to step up to the leadership role is that you were part of one of the main issues at the time. Not saying it was entirely your fault at all but members wouldn’t have accepted you as the new leader regardless.
Concerning the bullying and harassment. We are very sorry that you and Vort were mistreated regarding your glamor. That shouldn’t have happened at all. When it started the leadership of FFXIV should have jumped on whoever instigated the namecalling and jeering and put an end to it right there. It’s very sad to see that didn’t happen and lead to much of the pain you and Vort went through. That is the main reason we terminated the leadership of the FFXIV chapter and started from scratch. Your leaders were incapable of solving a very simple issue that has ultimately lead to people leaving the FC. They lacked communication, they were uncoordinated and they weren’t fixing issues that leaders are required to fix.
Now it sounds like you want us to punish the people who started it all, but we have no way of knowing every single person involved in the misconduct. My point is even if we found them all, gave them a warning and told them not to break the code of conduct again, that would only be a mere slap on the hand. What we implemented was better leadership, people who aren’t afraid to uphold the CoC and ensure that no-one is being mistreated. We felt that this was the best route to take.
Referring to the wedding invitation sent by Gaius, that same message was sent to everyone invited to the wedding. They had a theme and certain colors they were going for and didn’t want anyone to feel left out of the festivities. So it wasn’t a condescending remark or a jab at you, it was informing everyone of the event attire.
We are sorry that things have not turned out quite the way you would have liked them. We also noticed that you have stepped down from the Operations Officer position and we acknowledge your resignation. The HC is very appreciative of the help you have given us on the website and on discord, we couldn’t have gotten a lot of that done without you.
In closing, we hope that you can understand the reasoning behind our decisions and that our intentions were pure. If you feel like SOLA is no-longer the guild for you then we completely understand and wish you the best of luck in your next guild.
Sincerely,
The High Council
After I read that, I responded to their letter with the following:
High Council,
The policy was approved by Mirakle. I also don’t put blame on the previous leadership. Dan removed that post before it blew up (and spoke to Mirakle about it), but was put back because people started whining about it. After that is when it all blew up. Also with your statement you are saying that i am “incapable of solving a very simple issue.” This whole situation is the last thing that i would expect to have from a Christian Lead Community. As well as one of your members saying in /shout about how non-believers are the cause of the recent Florida Shooting. This just baffles my mind. Obviously my faith isn’t the same as all of yours. I don’t have the luxury of knowing every verse in the Bible. What I do have the luxury of is experience of leading people.
The previous leadership was based around democracy and not a dictatorship. If that post wasn’t allowed to be put back (because removing it would have squashed the issue) you would still have people pissed off. This situation was blown up from something so stupid. That still baffles my mind.
I sincerely wish that it didn’t come to this, but due to your decisions I can no longer morally be involved in SOLA in any capacity. Not even as a regular member. I still stand by what I said before, Acceptance and Encouragement have not been felt.
Please delete me from the website.
Swai’th Belhi
But it didn’t end there. As from what you may have gathered from my other posts, they had stuff stolen out of the FC chest. They blamed me for it stating, “they had the same IP as you.” For those who don’t know how Charter Communications works, they cycle through IPs per modem, except when you have a business account. They cycle them weekly. Even with that knowledge, they still blamed me, kicked me from the raid team, and spreading this untrue information across the server that I play on.
I still can’t believe that something this major was caused by what a fictional avatar was wearing. Hopefully this is the end of this and is as transparent as possible.
Final Peace Eternal 